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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2014.07.16 11:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
Oh wow!
I've been following the updates pretty closely and missed this. As the leader of a small manu corp I think I've directed something like 20 characters to train this skill to 5. Sad to see that it's wasted SP for them.
Why not just remove this skill completely? 5% TE is pretty insignificant for most manufacturers, and I don't really see anyone training it past say 3 in its current form to get those extra 2% squeezed out.
This also shows that the changes need to be communicated to the community more clearly. I'm baffled that I'm finding this out about a week before the update when I've been watching things pretty darn closely. Similar situation seems to be recurring with the significant changes to bpo's research and build times that can only be found if you happen to download a .csv buried in a long technical discussion.
Anyway, refund please! |
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2014.07.16 12:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's a change, but it's changing a very valuable skill to an indirectly related and arguably not very valuable skill.
If I do round the clock production, which I generally don't as I do T2 modules, I would save 1.5 days per month with the 5% time reduction, all other factors being equal.
However since this is a global savings (curren tproducers have it traind to 5, future producers maybe 3), the effect on extra income is pretty meh. Because everyone is producing at the same rate more or less, the amount earned from that production is going to normalize at market. If everyone is building faster, then no one is.
I'd say just remove this skill entirely and refund the SP. I can't think of a less exciting skill to max out. Unless you count the new 'refining skills' where I folks get to sit on the edge of their seat waiting for 'Veldspar 5' to complete.
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Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
My miffing is partially from how the change wasn't communicated, like many Crius changes have not been.
I've been playing long enough that a few million SP here or there isn't the end of the world for me, but I also have a bunch of new players in my corp who have one skillset to their name at this point, that being production.
Should barriers to entry be removed to most things? Probably. Should people be able to fly capitals right out the gate too?
Is this specific case being handled pretty badly? Absolutely. I'm pretty sure this could have been addressed during the 10 week extension on the industry changes had it been communicated clearly earlier. Here's hoping that the response to this doesn't remain as, 'well it's too late to do anything about now' |
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.07.17 02:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Rust Connor wrote:My biggest issue is: do we need more reduction on production time?
...
So my incredible unpopular suggestion is: If you want to give us a new time reduction skill, first increase production time on all blueprints so that we get a similar level of industrial production output. =)
This man has it right!
T2 production times on modules have been cut in Crius by 50% or more. There's not enough work to go around as it is, and chopping off an additional 5% of that work is a terrible idea.
You can't remove all the barriers to production while simultaneously reducing the amount of production to be done! It's a shame that this is happening in the first place and that it's all 'too late to change', and hacking off another 20th is only going to make it worse. |
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.07.17 11:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
We're throwing around ideas for better bonuses for this skill that we can get implemented for the initial Crius release. How does say 2%/level install cost reduction feel? It ends up being most advantageous in major industry hubs or when using teams, but new players can still compete on price by building in less busy systems.
It is of course not as powerful as the current TQ version of this skill, but the whole point of this change is that it's currently *too* powerful, so we're deliberately trying to tone it down a bit.
Tough to say without the numbers at my fingertips.
Am I close to right if I were to say:
1. The busiest hubs would see a 10-15% * price = install cost 2. Price is tied to market value and is very loosely comparable to 1.4x mat value 3. Salary for teams gets up to 10%
So a 10% reduction of the 10% increase in cost works out to ~ a 1% reduction in total cost?
Fix me if I'm wrong here. Seems very thin.
I'd say just remove the skill entirely from the game if you can't figure out what to do with it? Deciding how to repurpose the skill to appease the masses doesn't seem like a great way to go, even though you're taking tons of flak a the moment.
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Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.07.17 12:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: They're both affecting different things though - and the general pattern in EVE skills (that we are trying to adhere to more closely whenever we touch skill bonuses) is that more advanced skills take longer and give lower bonuses. That's why f.ex the advanced weapon skills only give 2%/level - quick to learn, slow to master.
Yet that's 10% on top of the TOTAL damage - and even then most players will not prioritize IV -> V over other things. I'm not sure if you read my earlier post after my edit, but with your new skill at 10% we are - using you average from the dev blog of 2% - talking about a 0.2% reduction in total build cost for 768k SP invested, with the step from IV -> V being a 0.04% cost reduction. You really think players would prioritize that skill? Depends what you're building where. If you're building ammo in the back of beyond it'll basically make no difference. If you're building components for a dread (let's say ~2bn worth) for sale in a major hub and you want to build in-system, you might be looking at a 10% base rate, so 200m, then 10% reduction on that is saving you 20m per ship (ie 1% of build cost).
This is in line with my thinking, and almost certainly too thin to be of any worth to anyone. You're saving 20M per ship if you train the skill all the way to the top. Training it 4 -> 5 is going to save you 4M per ship. Training it 3->5 8M per ship.
At a glance, you'd be using all 10 lines for at the very least 3 days. So you'd be saving 8M per 3 days doing dread construction.
My wild guess would be that there is no question that someone building at this scale isn't going to care about 3M per day. I don't see any compelling reason for someone to train this skill to V under any circumstances.
Also this is a pretty extreme case. The argument you seem to be making is that a very small portion of the population may find some benefit in this skill. That's great, but the problem that we started with is that a very large portion of the population has already trained this skill when it did something entirely different.
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Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2014.07.17 14:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:[quote=Medalyn Isis]
[edit] Also, what are opinions on doing something now vs leaving this for the initial Crius release and having a proper discussion now about potential longer-term solutions?
Do it this way. Everyone will be in a better place to evaluate Crius and what a 'new' skill should do in a month.
Please be sure to also address the more fundamental issue that caused all this, which was the failure to communicate clearly the upcoming changes to the community. Unless you happen to have the time and energy to wade through multiple hundred post dev blogs, many of these Crius changes will come as a surprise.
I'm betting that this change and others is going to blindside many people who don't follow reddit or the forums as well. I know you guys recently released an info sheet of some sort that had some of the broad changes on it, but it read more like an advertisement/hype than an informational document. |
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